Attached Objects & Collisions Misfunctional



  • @Deeeds maybe you could define/explain damping then?



  • @iTap-Development I have. In our last discussion on this matter. You weren't listening then, you aren't now.





  • @Deeeds I am listening, that’s why I asked.



  • @Deeeds you said, “That's not how damping works.

    As I said, damping is the force that reduces oscillation. If it was a force coming back from the other object it would (at the very least) sustain oscillations, if not increase them in the perfectness of a physics simulation.”

    So explain how it reduces oscillation, and the effect that produces.

    And I’m not saying it’s a force pushing back the other way, What I mean is more of an effect of restricting the decompressing of the spring.



  • @iTap-Development said in Attached Objects & Collisions Misfunctional:

    @Deeeds you said, “That's not how damping works.

    As I said, damping is the force that reduces oscillation. If it was a force coming back from the other object it would (at the very least) sustain oscillations, if not increase them in the perfectness of a physics simulation.”

    So explain how it reduces oscillation, and the effect that produces.

    And I’m not saying it’s a force pushing back the other way, What I mean is more of an effect of restricting the decompressing of the spring.

    @iTap-Development It's clear you've learnt something since last time, and attempting to paint yourself as having been right and being right.

    Give up on that. Particularly the bold endeavour to divert to discussion of "effect" as though that's going to somehow obscure your previous claims of these joints being "fine".



  • Can we not?



  • @Thecheater887 Joints are broken.

    Helping one person to see that might help all to understand this to be the case.

    It's not just the joints and collisions you're discussing that have issues. I've not yet seen a joint in hyperPad respond the way it should and could if it was a correctly implemented utilisation of Chipmunk2D. And there's other peculiar stuff, too. Friction works more efficiently than it should, or traditionally does in Chipmunk2D. Which is even weirder than anything else about the whole setup, and something I'm exploiting.

    I'm pretty sure that the values used for error correction and bias in the constraints parent class are "wrong" for the rest of the values used in the hyperPad Chipmunk space setup. This would go a long ways to explaining how the rope behaves weirdly, and somewhat explain the misbehaviour of the spring "joint".

    But the spring joint has other problems, too.

    The fact that weld and pivot don't work properly is explained by what @Hamed has said he's doing to fake air resistance in Chipmunk. That's causing that lag you're seeing on objects that still have friction and mass, I think. My circumvention of this problem was the complete zeroing of mass and friction for the attached objects and then using them as placeholders for what I actually wanted to do with a proper pin and weld joint.

    A limiting mess.

    I can't work around the problems in the Spring and Rope setup, so made horrible fake lerps with Move To... but, as I've said before, I haven't had a chance to identify all the issues and detective the problems with physics.

    And I no longer need do that, as @Hamed's comments confirmed a suspicion I had, that some things were fundamentally wrong with how Chipmunk was being utilised.



  • @Deeeds said in Attached Objects & Collisions Misfunctional:

    @iTap-Development said in Attached Objects & Collisions Misfunctional:

    @Deeeds you said, “That's not how damping works.

    As I said, damping is the force that reduces oscillation. If it was a force coming back from the other object it would (at the very least) sustain oscillations, if not increase them in the perfectness of a physics simulation.”

    So explain how it reduces oscillation, and the effect that produc

    And I’m not saying it’s a force pushing back the other way, What I mean is more of an effect of restricting the decompressing of the spring.

    @iTap-Development It's clear you've learnt something since last time, and attempting to paint yourself as having been right and being right.

    Give up on that. Particularly the bold endeavour to divert to discussion of "effect" as though that's going to somehow obscure your previous claims of these joints being "fine".

    I have not learned anything, I haven’t looked at the link you sent, and I didn’t ride a bike(although I’ve been riding atv’s and side by sides since I was like 6, and yes I’ve played with the suspention lol). I guess I wasn’t making myself clear.

    You said, “Particularly the bold endeavour to divert to discussion of "effect" as though that's going to somehow obscure your previous claims of these joints being "fine".”

    I didn’t divert to effect! Effect is what I mention in the first place.......“damping effectively reduces the speed/force of a decompressing spring, right?”.

    As for them working fine, did you even look at the project I sent? Pivots and springs work normal in it.



  • @Deeeds said in Attached Objects & Collisions Misfunctional:

    @iTap-Development I'm now absolutely convinced you have no idea how damping works, or what it is.

    Read here:

    Then ride a bike with suspension.

    Then press down on the bonnet of a car and let it spring back. Notice what happens.

    It appears more like you are trying to paint yourself as being right, since here you said you were “absolutely convinced I had no idea how damping works, or what it is” and now you say “It's clear you've learnt something since last time”. I know I’m not an expert in this area, but apparently I have at least a limited understanding.



  • @iTap-Development said in Attached Objects & Collisions Misfunctional:

    Pivots and springs work normal in it.

    Normal being what, exactly?



  • @Deeeds normal is defined as,
    0_1512329081304_BE0F4003-A5C2-47A9-B483-CFB365A276CC.png

    Sorry, I should have used a more common, understandable word......



  • @iTap-Development Your original claims, and the ones I'm taking issue with, are that spring joints and pivots are working fine, and your new claim that they're normal. They're not fine, not normal, and their issues are indicative of the problems the OP is suffering, and of a fundamental problem in how physics operate within hyperPad.

    @Thecheater887 is having real problems with the physics system. Symptoms of the problems that cause these issues permeate through all of the joints in the system in different ways. Springs are the best indicator because they're more than the other joints (not really joints/constraints) and have a couple of glaring issues.

    One of them is damping. Damping, ironically, is the only part of a spring joint/constraint that can be considered a joint/constraint.

    Just because you're not noticing and/or unaware of what these issues are doesn't mean anything is fine, or normal, or that spring joints or pivot joints or any other specific thing is working as it should. They aren't.

    The pivot joints, by way of exact example, exactly mimic the problems @Thecheater887 is seeing with weld joints because they share the same assumption: that they'll provide a fixed location of a rigid connection between two bodies. Yet neither of them provide this.

    Just because you haven't noticed this doesn't mean that pivot joints are fine, or normal.

    Pivots and springs work normal in it.

    Wrong.



  • @Thecheater887 said in Attached Objects & Collisions Misfunctional:

    Collisions, though, play havoc with the physics engine. For whatever reason, areodynamics are potato, causeing non-rectangle or circle objects to spaz and jerk in usually one direction. I'm assuming this is because of the uneven collisions and Air Force (resistance?), yet we have no way to fix this, especially if it isn't.

    Do you have joints connecting any of these bodies to any of the other bodies?



  • @Deeeds said in Attached Objects & Collisions Misfunctional:

    Pivots and springs work normal in it.

    Wrong.

    Did you look at the project? And if you did, you would see they work fine, normal, correctly, and any other word you would like.



  • @iTap-Development

    A quick lesson in booleans, since you’ve probably missed these having grown up inside only hyperPad:

    I know I’m not an expert in this area

    TRUE!

    you would see they work fine, normal, correctly, and any other word you would like.

    FALSE!



  • @Deeeds said in Attached Objects & Collisions Misfunctional:

    @iTap-Development

    A quick lesson in booleans, since you’ve probably missed these having grown up inside only hyperPad:

    I know I’m not an expert in this area

    TRUE!

    you would see they work fine, normal, correctly, and any other word you would like.

    FALSE!

    Haha. I know what Booleans are. Hyperpad isn’t the only thing I’ve used, but it is the main thing.

    So, you know what I know about myself is true? You are brilliant!

    Did you play the project? I have to assume you didn’t.

    if deeedsknowseverything == stupid then
        print("iTap is right") 
    end


  • @iTap-Development No. It's not quite that simple. I'm wrong just as much as the next person.

    However, you don't know what you don't know about springs and pivots. You're testing them in ideal scenarios and overlooking their flaws, and you are unaware of how they're expected to behave, should behave and designed to behave.

    And you haven't acknowledged, nor are you helping with the OP's problems.

    In fact, the opposite is true. You're distracting from his very real problems, which I've been wasting my time trying to reassert are real, to you.

    You seem to have missed all of my points in this failed endeavour. Perhaps you'll believe @Hamed, who said this about his implementation of Chipmunk and other things...

    So, when we made the migration from Box2D to Chipmunk, we kind of fudged the numbers of some stuff to get it as close as possible so that old games were still supported.

    All this being said, theres a bunch of stuff broken



  • @Deeeds wait, in the other thread you said “Like you tested spring and pivot joints?”
    Now you said, “You're testing them in ideal scenarios and overlooking their flaws”
    So am I testing it or not? Make up your mind lol

    Let me guess, you used to be indecisive, but now your not so sure?


  • Admin

    Ok so the bug has been reported.
    We'll be changing how we do physics by giving you more "raw" control and less "magic" behind the scenes.

    Closing this thread since it's going way off topic and makes it harder for us to actually find problems in between these discussions.

    Use the general discussion section to continue this discussion if you want :).


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